You always make me want to add loads of comments, inspiring thoughts I guess, which is proof of a good writer :). But I want to ask first Andrea, have you read Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer?
I read Braiding Sweetgrass last month. I loved how RWK integrates little botany lessons and was moved to tears by the story about students who were unaccustomed to being immersed in the living world and expressed their wonderment by singing (Amazing Grace). However, I felt disappointed about the (short) passage where RWK endorses "clean" energy.
Temporary. - like, how temporary? There’s some mighty inertia built up in this errant supersystem, entropy and all, so it might be longer than an older folk’s lifetime, might not, let’s ask all the Nostradamuses…
Tough topic, but your writings are so much more grounded than Ms. Donald efforts, though she puts on quite a show. She should have you on - Eliot Jacobson fumbled his CNN International chance to do a Newsroom-style truth bomb for all us doomer bastards, but you wouldn’t let us down.
In reference to #3, Reduction to Self-Help, in your article, you write, “all the brutality that our culture has inflicted … on humans who were wise enough to live harmoniously with the rest of Life.”
While the brutality inflicted on Indigenous populations, such as Native Americans, is undoubtedly inexcusable, I wonder if you intended to characterize these societies as having intentionally eschewed technology out of wisdom, to avoid complicating their lives? I suspect that a more accurate interpretation might be that these societies were simply living within the limitations of their environment and available resources. Their way of life was deeply adapted to the natural world, and their relationship to tools and technology was fundamentally different from that of modern societies.
• "living within limitations" *includes* eschewing technology (see my bullet below about leaves)
• the guiding wisdom isn't about avoidance of an overly-complicated life; it's about avoiding the consequences of resource over-exploitation
Nature's "limitations" aren't hard limits. Rather, it's possible to exceed them. The catch is that this incurs consequences. Cases of societies overstepping limitations includes when humans hunted megafauna to extinction.
Since it's possible to overstep limitations, to remain within limitations is *optional*, and yet we see cultures that go with that option, likely because their predecessors "lived-and-learned" and incorporated self-restraint into later core values. For example, from "Indigenous Traditions and Ecology: The Interbeing of Cosmology and Community"...
• the Popol Vuh people believe that “anymals of the earth – and the plant and land itself – do not belong to people; ‘rather, people belong to the earth’”
• the Nahua people "do not seek to eliminate ‘competitive’ species but expect other animals to eat part of their crops and food stores”
• some other group (I didn't note who!) believes that “The plants need their leaves, and there is a limit to that which humans may take and legitimately ask forgiveness” ... Imagine exercising such self-restraint that you don't even over-forage LEAVES! Clearly, they are (intentionally) far from developing an excavator
• the Bhima Saoras people allow their youngest to starve rather than over-harvesting food
That’s fair. I know it’s impossible to dodge misinterpretations of your writing. And I appreciate you taking the time to clarify with specific examples. I enjoyed the article.
Biggest subject of them all, but you always write gracefully and with fine command.
I'm always leery of self-help balms, which is why your generous tolerating of the phrase "express gratitude" is the only off note to me.
We didn't ask to be born. We didn't ask to be born as a member of this species, nor did we ask to be born to live during this collapse phase. We had no choice or vote in having the human world be so stuffed with growth-imperative psychopaths and idiocy-infused controlling institutions. Nothing in the sky mandated, either, the vast amounts of fossil fuel production that accrued to our inherited lives.
All this, all the good shit and the bad shit, came about, just came about, with maybe a few good choices from our individual selves along the way, or we avoided some of the choices that might have put us in the street.
Who is listening to our expressions of gratitude? Who, dead or alive, should be the recipients of.the gratitude postcard?
Also, though I may disavow Bill Rees' hopium windup tendency, he did stellar work batting down Rachel Donald's cult of indigeneity finger-wagging in their podcast encounter on her show.
Gratitude- It's just my personal disposition, I guess, that I feel inclined to acknowledge, "This hot shower (in winter) / ice cream (in summer) / freedom from fear of being murdered are great!" because I know they're temporary
You always make me want to add loads of comments, inspiring thoughts I guess, which is proof of a good writer :). But I want to ask first Andrea, have you read Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer?
Thank you!
I read Braiding Sweetgrass last month. I loved how RWK integrates little botany lessons and was moved to tears by the story about students who were unaccustomed to being immersed in the living world and expressed their wonderment by singing (Amazing Grace). However, I felt disappointed about the (short) passage where RWK endorses "clean" energy.
Great book! Inspiring speaker, too!!
It is, I've heard she has a new book out. Not heard her speak though.
When ever any one mentions indegineous peoples or invasive species I recall Braiding Sweetgrass, there's a conversation we can have about those.
Temporary. - like, how temporary? There’s some mighty inertia built up in this errant supersystem, entropy and all, so it might be longer than an older folk’s lifetime, might not, let’s ask all the Nostradamuses…
Tough topic, but your writings are so much more grounded than Ms. Donald efforts, though she puts on quite a show. She should have you on - Eliot Jacobson fumbled his CNN International chance to do a Newsroom-style truth bomb for all us doomer bastards, but you wouldn’t let us down.
Finally, some realism and, dare I say, pragmatism… “grow up and face reality” indeed.
thanks - I don't do sugarcoating!
Thanks for the thoughtful, helpful discussion
People simply don’t comprehend what is coming. It ends with cultural collapse including cannibalism.
Erst kommt das Fressen, dann kommt die Moral.
we're definitely in for "interesting times", as Hagens puts it!
In reference to #3, Reduction to Self-Help, in your article, you write, “all the brutality that our culture has inflicted … on humans who were wise enough to live harmoniously with the rest of Life.”
While the brutality inflicted on Indigenous populations, such as Native Americans, is undoubtedly inexcusable, I wonder if you intended to characterize these societies as having intentionally eschewed technology out of wisdom, to avoid complicating their lives? I suspect that a more accurate interpretation might be that these societies were simply living within the limitations of their environment and available resources. Their way of life was deeply adapted to the natural world, and their relationship to tools and technology was fundamentally different from that of modern societies.
I'd make tweaks to the interpretations above:
• "living within limitations" *includes* eschewing technology (see my bullet below about leaves)
• the guiding wisdom isn't about avoidance of an overly-complicated life; it's about avoiding the consequences of resource over-exploitation
Nature's "limitations" aren't hard limits. Rather, it's possible to exceed them. The catch is that this incurs consequences. Cases of societies overstepping limitations includes when humans hunted megafauna to extinction.
Since it's possible to overstep limitations, to remain within limitations is *optional*, and yet we see cultures that go with that option, likely because their predecessors "lived-and-learned" and incorporated self-restraint into later core values. For example, from "Indigenous Traditions and Ecology: The Interbeing of Cosmology and Community"...
• the Popol Vuh people believe that “anymals of the earth – and the plant and land itself – do not belong to people; ‘rather, people belong to the earth’”
• the Nahua people "do not seek to eliminate ‘competitive’ species but expect other animals to eat part of their crops and food stores”
• some other group (I didn't note who!) believes that “The plants need their leaves, and there is a limit to that which humans may take and legitimately ask forgiveness” ... Imagine exercising such self-restraint that you don't even over-forage LEAVES! Clearly, they are (intentionally) far from developing an excavator
• the Bhima Saoras people allow their youngest to starve rather than over-harvesting food
That’s fair. I know it’s impossible to dodge misinterpretations of your writing. And I appreciate you taking the time to clarify with specific examples. I enjoyed the article.
Biggest subject of them all, but you always write gracefully and with fine command.
I'm always leery of self-help balms, which is why your generous tolerating of the phrase "express gratitude" is the only off note to me.
We didn't ask to be born. We didn't ask to be born as a member of this species, nor did we ask to be born to live during this collapse phase. We had no choice or vote in having the human world be so stuffed with growth-imperative psychopaths and idiocy-infused controlling institutions. Nothing in the sky mandated, either, the vast amounts of fossil fuel production that accrued to our inherited lives.
All this, all the good shit and the bad shit, came about, just came about, with maybe a few good choices from our individual selves along the way, or we avoided some of the choices that might have put us in the street.
Who is listening to our expressions of gratitude? Who, dead or alive, should be the recipients of.the gratitude postcard?
Also, though I may disavow Bill Rees' hopium windup tendency, he did stellar work batting down Rachel Donald's cult of indigeneity finger-wagging in their podcast encounter on her show.
Gratitude- It's just my personal disposition, I guess, that I feel inclined to acknowledge, "This hot shower (in winter) / ice cream (in summer) / freedom from fear of being murdered are great!" because I know they're temporary
I loved that episode of Planet Critical! And the juicy email exchange between Donald and Rees that followed - https://www.planetcritical.com/p/reflections-on-an-argument
When the population gets small enough, the land and water will recover...Another 100,000 year ice age will do nicely....